Calvinist Hogwash #1 (God and sin/suffering)
Subtitle: "Calvinists say the stupidest things"
Sub-subtitle: "Yes, Calvinists really do teach this stuff"
Sub-sub-subtitle: "You're probably gonna wanna take a shower when you're doing reading"
This is the first of a series of posts of Calvinist quotes that reveal Calvinism's true colors, that show what it really believes underneath all the sugar-coating, and that show how deceptive it is. (I'll keep my comments to a minimum here, but I did add some emphasis, in bold, from time to time. I'll post one whole long post at the end of the series.)
Have a filthy, stinkin' good time rolling around in this pig-slop. (And then go take a shower.)
But first...
I want to start with some quotes from those who've been hurt by Calvinism, to show the damage Calvinism can do to people and their faith. (Of course, Calvinists would probably just claim these are non-elect people anyway.).
A Psychology Today article (Understanding Cults: The Basics) lists some of the lasting effects of cults, the devastation it has on people's hearts and minds, such as (among others): extreme identity confusion, panic/anxiety attacks, depression, anger and guilt and shame, inability to make their own decisions (to trust their own judgment), fear of intimacy and commitment, distrust of others, grieving the loss of family and friends, loss of meaning or purpose, PTSD, etc.
I think Calvinism does this to people too. I think the longer someone stays in a Calvinist church, the more it will destroy their faith (what should be a simple faith), their relationship with God, their trust of God, and their ability to discern truth for themselves and to understand the Bible the way God meant it to be understood.
And if and when someone leaves a Calvinist church, it may destroy their relationships with others and their ability/desire to get involved in a new church, leaving them always distrustful, always on alert for any whiff of Calvinism, always flinching at even good words like "grace" and "biblical" and "love," always distrusting their ability to understand God's Word, always afraid of being fooled again, maybe even too exhausted to care about even trying to put their faith back together. [And if their church was an authoritarian, legalistic kind, they might rebel against God and all of His rules and truths as a way of breaking free from the legalistic, domineering control of the church leaders, and this can lead to all sorts of heart-breaking consequences in their lives.]
A kind of spiritual post-traumatic stress disorder.
And so here are some quotes about the real-life damage Calvinism has done to people (there's more in my post "Calvinism's Heart-Breaking Destruction"):
From a Reddit post called "Calvinism is disgusting":
"As an ex-Christian who used to be a Calvinist, what alarmed me is that all the fears about satan applied to god... [Calvinists] ascribed so many characteristics to god that could be applied to satan that made them seem indistinguishable." (from 'deleted')
"I remember as I was leaving my faith, I thought 'If God exists, then he let my parents waste thousands on private Christian education, let me be baptized and study his word and be confirmed, let me have periods of doubt and repentance, all when he knew that I would be damned to hell.' Even when I was still a Christian, he knew that I was damned and he never helped me." (Uriah_Blacke)
"My parents used to say 'even the cutest baby is a dirty rotten sinner.' It was somewhat of a joke in our family, but also definitely what we all believed. I’m turning 30 this year and I still have trouble turning down the volume on this narrative about myself. It has led to issues in my friendships, with my partner, and now, with my parents... I have deconstructed to the [point] of agnosticism... This has crippled my emotional growth as an adult in ways..." (foreverlanding)
"The [Calvinist] concept of total depravity is so completely toxic. I'm still unlearning this as well. It does make me angry sometimes thinking about how absolutely f*cked up it is to teach children they are inherently awful just for being... The system is designed to make you feel like a POS [piece of sh*t] just for being a human. I'm 37 now and am agnostic after trying really hard to believe until about 2ish years ago. I feel more hopeful and free without the church." (eab1728)
"Agreed. Total Depravity isn't the "Good News" espoused in Reformed circles... Reformed doctrine never allowed me to truly accept my own self-worth; it robbed me of dignity and replaced it with constant, grating guilt. And it's utterly worthless in the face of real hardship... I am a universalist now, which couldn't be further from Reformed doctrine. And honestly, what a relief." (come_heroine)
"This is a screenshot from an email that I sent to my mom when I was 12 years old, simply titled "distressed". [In the email, the 12-year-old is telling the parent that she (I'll just assume it's a 'she' for now) is distressed because she's praying and reading the Bible, but nothing is happening. She's looking for assurance that she's saved, one of the elect. And the father replies that she should keep asking God to show her the way, that only God can save her, that only God can awaken her dead spirit and make her alive, that she can't do anything to save herself. So essentially, it's "Do something about it, but you can't do anything about it, and so wait to see if God convinces you that you're one of the elect." So confusing. So biblically off-track. And it basically just boils down to "if you're not elect, you can't do anything about it and there's no hope for you." No wonder the kid is distressed!] I'm so angry that I was taught that I was completely bad, simply by being human, and I deserved to be tortured by the Creator for all of eternity, AND I COULD DO NOTHING ABOUT IT. All I could do was pray to God and hope that he had mercy on such a miserable, worthless, depraved wretch such as twelve-year-old me. I lived with a phobia of hell until the cage of my mind opened when I was 22, and I could finally think for the first time in my life..." (why-homo-sapien)
"A few years ago I was wondering why my self-esteem was so crap and then suddenly realised that the people who taught me to hate myself were my parents, through the medium of calvinism :)" (pktechboi)
From the Reddit post (with a few minor spelling and punctuation corrections) called: I have posted on another Group as well. I NEED SOMEONE TO EXPLAIN Calvinism to me because what I understand of it is scaring me!!! : r/Christians (reddit.com)
"Okay.... so I have just watched a sermon from Paul Washer (which I thought was one of the most amazing sermons I have ever seen). That man has a fire for Christ that cannot be extinguished. But for the first time, I found out what Calvinism is. And I am scared to death!!! So if I am not elected by God to be saved, I will not be saved??? No matter how much time I devoted to prayer, how many times I have been broken by his feet have, how many hours I spent learning scripture, how many days I "thought" I was talking to my best friend. It was all just a lie??? I come in heaven just to realize I was never elected??? And get thrown into hell because the day I was born I was already doomed from the beginning??? And my whole faith is just one big hoax???" (Dingus_bellator1027) (That's some serious struggling going on right there! And Calvinism can offer no real hope, no real help, no real comfort other than "wait until you die to see if you won the salvation lottery or not".)
If you are raising kids in a Calvinist church, take all of this very seriously. Because this could be them someday: "I have recently discovered the doctrine of election and I believe that I am not elect. I don't have any spiritual fruit and I hate God with all my heart. My question is, at this point is it right to want to die? Might as well go to hell now instead of later. I do not want to kill myself (I never will hopefully) but I cant see a reason to live when my end destiny will be the same." (from "deleted") (Found in Election and Suicide : r/Calvinism (reddit.com))
(And I can only hope that the last one is a sick joke.)
But as you read through the Calvinist quotes in this series, you might begin to understand why they feel this way.
So buckle your seatbelts, hold on tight, and away we go...
About God controlling all things, even sin, evil, suffering, unbelief (and examples of Calvinist doublespeak, deception, and contradictions)
Calvinists often use words like "free-will, freely willing, by choice, voluntarily" and "God 'permits'/allows'," etc. to try to sound like Calvinism truly believes in some level of real free-will, especially when trying to figure out who to blame for sin even though God "ordains" everything, in Calvinism.
But remember that they don't mean that we actually make choices among various real options. They just mean that we will always choose - that we can only choose - to do what God predestined us to do. However, this violates the very definition of choice: an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
In Calvinism, there are no other possibilities, no ability or chance to do anything other than what was predestined by God. But they still call it a "choice" - not because we had real options we could choose between, but because we "wanted" to do it, according to the built-in desires of the nature God gave us.
It would be like me giving you a magic potion that makes you want to kick every puppy you see. And since that's the only desire built into the potion, that's the only thing you could "want" to do... and so that's the only thing you could "choose" to do. But since I didn't actually have to physically grab your foot to force you to kick the puppies - the potion did the "forcing" for me - I can say that you are responsible for it, that you "chose" to kick puppies because you "wanted" to kick puppies. This is how it works in Calvinism.
So remember that no matter how they try to soften it or spin it (by playing word-games or changing definitions of "free-will, choice, responsibility, allows," etc.), this is the bottom-line in Calvinism:
John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion, book 1, chapters 16-17):
"[Man] cannot even give utterance except in so far as God pleases"
"everything done in the world is according to His decree"
"it is certain that not a drop of rain falls without the express command of God"
"no wind ever rises or rages without His special command"
“Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined… Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.”
"the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as [God] permits - nay, unless in so far as he commands"
"Therefore, since God claims for himself the right of governing the world, a right unknown to us, let it be our law of modesty and soberness to acquiesce in his supreme authority regarding his will as our only rule of justice, and the most perfect cause of all things..."
According to Calvin, God completely controls and causes every little thing that happens "down to the minutest detail, down even to a sparrow" ...
... and it is "insipid" to say God is just the originator of all things, but not the controller of all things...
... and "[King Solomon] derides the stupidity of those who presume to undertake anything without God, as if they were not ruled by his hand" ...
... and we commit blasphemy if we "refuse to admit that every event which happens in the world is governed by the incomprehensible counsel of God."
And yet Calvin constantly uses terms like "freely willing" and "voluntarily" to sound like he teaches that man is really responsible for our sins. Nonsense and hogwash!
He even contradictorily says (book 2, chapter 2): "If any one, then, chooses to make use of this term ["free-will"]... but I am unwilling to use it myself; and others if they will take my advice, will do well to abstain from it."
[So even though Calvin believes there's no true free-will because God controls and causes everything, even our utterances, Calvin apparently has the freedom to will himself to not use the term "free-will"!?! Ha-ha-ha! What irony!
One of Calvinism's fundamental errors is that they misunderstand certain basic concepts - and then they build their theology on those misunderstandings. Such as, yes, God is "sovereign and in control and He governs." But this is about His position of authority over all (and He gets to decide how He acts in that position, what He does and what He allows us to do).
But Calvinists have redefined it to be that God must preplan, cause, control everything, even sin and evil and unbelief, or else He's not God. Calvinists tell God how God must act in order to be God, instead of letting Him be God the way He wants to be God - a God who has clearly decided to give people free-will even though He has the power to control all things if He wanted to.]
John Calvin (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God): “The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted...
... how foolish and frail [it is to suggest] that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission... It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them...
... Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for his mercy's sake, or to evil according to their merits...
... Of all the things which happen, the first cause is to be understood to be His will, because He so governs the natures created by Him, as to determine all the counsels and the actions of men to the end decreed by Him..."
J.I. Packer (Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God): “[God] orders and controls all things, human actions among them…He [also] holds every man responsible for the choices he makes and the courses of action he pursues… Man is a responsible moral agent, though he is also divinely controlled... To our finite minds, of course, the thing is inexplicable.” [It’s inexplicable because Calvinism is wrong, contradicting the Bible's plain teaching!]
John MacArthur, answering the question of if the will of sinful mankind is bound or free ("Answering Big Questions About the Sovereignty of God"): “Yeah it is both... It is free in the sense that it can choose its sin. It is bound in the sense that it can only choose its sin... It will [choose sin], but you can pick your poison... You’re bound to sin, you can do nothing but sin... [Some "freedom," huh!] ... the sovereignty of God [goes] down to the individual activities of every single person... There is no difference between what God knows, what God allows and what God determines..." [Once again, "sovereign" is really about the position of authority God is in - the top one - but Calvinists have redefined it to be about how God must use His authority all the time to control everything or else He's not God. Big difference.]
R.C. Sproul (Does God Control Everything?): “If God is not sovereign, God is not God. If there is even one maverick molecule in the universe – one molecule running loose outside the scope of God’s sovereign ordination – we cannot have the slightest confidence that any promise God has ever made about the future will come to pass.” [Of course, God is sovereign, just not in the way Calvinists think. And considering that Calvi-god first preplans sin, then commands us not to sin, then causes us to sin, and then punishes us for sinning... how in the world can Calvinists trust that kind of god to keep his promises!?!]
Jonathan Edwards (The Final Judgment, Section 1): "[God] is by right the supreme and absolute ruler and disposer of all things, both in the natural and moral world... God governs the sun, moon, and stars; he governs even the motes of dust which fly in the air. Not a hair of our heads falleth to the ground without our heavenly Father. God also governs the brute creatures; by his providence, he orders, according to his own decrees, all events concerning those creatures. And rational creatures are subject to the same sort of government; all their actions, and all events relating to them, being ordered by superior providence, according to absolute decrees; so that no event that relates to them ever happens without the disposal of God, according to his own decrees."
John Piper ("Has God Predetermined Every Tiny Detail in the Universe, Including Sin?"): “Has God predetermined every tiny detail in the universe, such as dust particles in the air and all of our besetting sins? Yes… Yes, every horrible thing and every sinful thing is ultimately governed by God… He controls everything, and he does it for his glory and our good.”
Edwin Palmer (The Five Points of Calvinism): “All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history… come to pass because God ordained them. Even sin– the fall of the devil from heaven, the fall of Adam, and every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history… Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe… He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. [A false dichotomy: “Either God predestines/controls everything, or else He has no idea what’s going to happen next and is at the mercy of humans.” They don't realize it, but Calvinists are actually limiting God's capabilities when they say a sovereign God cannot allow free-will, that He cannot work out His plans if He lets us make real choices on our own. That's a small-God theology.] No, He has foreordained everything… even sin… Although sin and unbelief are contrary to what God commands…” [And yet they still educate themselves into accepting this garbage.]
R.C. Sproul Jr. (Almighty Over All): “God wills all things that come to pass… God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that God created sin…”
Jonathan Edwards ("Remarks on Important Theological Controversies, Chapter III"): "That we should say, that God has decreed every action of men, yea, every action that is sinful, and every circumstance of those actions; that [he] predetermines that they shall be in every respect as they afterwards are; that he determines that there shall be such actions, and just so sinful as they are; and yet that God does not decree the actions that are sinful, as sin, but decrees them as good, is really consistent. For we do not mean by decreeing an action as sinful, the same as decreeing an action so that it shall be sinful; but by decreeing an action [as] sinful, I mean decreeing it for the sake of the sinfulness of the action. [Huh!?!] God decrees that they shall be sinful, for the sake of the good that he causes to arise from the sinfulness thereof; whereas man decrees them for the sake of the evil that is in them." [Translation: God decreed all sin but since He does it for good reasons, it's not sin for Him - but since we do it for bad reasons, it is sin for us.]...
Jeff Durbin, talking to a woman about evils like gang rape (see clips of it in this review: The Madness of Calvinism, and the full video here: Jeff Durbin Answering 'The Problem of Evil'.): “God actually has a morally sufficient reason for all the evil He plans… when you talk about the foreknowledge of God, we (Calvinists) are saying that God’s knowledge is wrapped up in His decree of what does and doesn’t take place… nothing happens in the universe apart from His will… So let’s say this evil happens. How do [people try to] get God off the hook?... By saying ‘He didn’t want that to happen, or He’ll fix it, or He wouldn’t mess with your free will”… [But] the truth is that all those answers make God unworthy of worship… He actually decrees all things." [So in order for God to be worthy of worship, He has to want and decree - not just allow - evils like gang rape. That's sick! FYI, Calvinists have redefined "foreknowledge" to be not just "knowing beforehand"... but "planning beforehand." They say that God only knows what's going to happen because He first planned it. This is not only a wrong definition of "foreknowledge," but it's also an attack on God's omniscience and foreknowledge because they are essentially saying that He can't foreknow what will happen unless He first planned it.]
The Westminster Confession of Faith: "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin... Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions..." [Translation: "God didn't just foreknow the sins and evil that would happen; He fore-planned it. But even though He fore-planned it, He's not the author of it." Hogwash!]
Wyatt Graham ("Should Christians say God predestines people to hell?"): "God has foreordained and controls all things whatsoever by his mysterious foreknowledge and providence. By definition, the eternal destinies of the elect and non-elect must fall under God’s foreordination and control... Scripture does affirm that God governs all affairs. So human sin does not exist outside of God’s governing providence... nothing exists outside of God’s control..." [Once again, "God controls all" (Calvinism, unbiblical) is far different than "God is in control over all" (biblical). One is about what God does, the other is about the position God holds, who He is.]
Calvinist David Mathis ("Does God 'Author' Sin?") looks at some sermons by John Piper. And in one of those sermons, Piper said, “God is sovereign over Satan, and therefore Satan’s will does not move without God’s permission. And therefore every move of Satan is part of God’s overall purpose and plan.”
[Notice how he subtly moves from "God is sovereign over Satan" to, essentially, "God controls Satan's Will." The first is about God being in a position of authority over Satan (biblical), but the second is about God controlling Satan's desires and actions (Calvinism, unbiblical). Big difference.]
He adds: "God does bring about sinful human actions... Somehow, we must confess both that God has a role in bringing evil about, and that in doing so he is holy and blameless... God does bring sins about, but always for his own good purposes. So in bringing sin to pass he does not himself commit sin. If that argument is sound, then a Reformed doctrine of the sovereignty of God does not imply that God is the author of sin."
[It's one thing for God to allow us to choose to sin and then to work our sins into His plans, or even to put us in circumstances that force us to choose between sin and obedience. But it's a much different thing for Him to preplan, cause, control all sins, which is a fundamental idea in Calvinism, which does indeed make God the author of sin, regardless of how they obscure or sugarcoat it. To author something is to write it into existence. So unless Calvinists want to claim that man preceded God so that he could write his own sins into existence before God had the chance to conceive of them, then they are definitely saying that God is the author of sin, especially since, in Calvinism, man cannot think or do anything that God hasn't first decreed.]
John MacArthur (Answering Big Questions About the Sovereignty of God): "[God] determined the end at the beginning, which is to say that whatever God purposes is what will happen. That’s what will happen. So whatever happens is what He purposed to happen, right?" [Error. A bait-and-switch. This is like saying "Since all monkeys are animals, then all animals are monkeys." Just because God plans things doesn't mean all things were planned by God.] You’re a believer, I’m a believer... God determined that when He laid out the plan... I think Christian people need to get to the point where instead of seeing the sovereignty of God as some kind of intrusion or – or some kind of impossible thing to explain - they need to see the sovereignty of God as the most encouraging, hopeful, blessed of all realities that you’re never – you’re never able to drift from His control, which is driving you to the purpose." [Even when you sin by God's "decree" and then get punished for it, or when someone else commits horrible evils against you by God's "decree"!?! Some comfort!]"
Mark Driscoll [see the video "Free will is demonic according to Mark Driscoll" from The Church Split] called free-will a "demonic deception" and says that we've been brainwashed by it. He says we have no free-will, that only God has free-will. And yet he also says that we make choices and that we are responsible for our choices.
[Doublespeak. And once again, Calvinists don't mean we make real choices among real options and so we are truly responsible because we could've chosen something else, which is how most normal people would understand it (and rightly so). They just mean that we choose to do what God predestined us to do, and that's all we could do. But they call this "choice" and say that since we "wanted" to do it (according to the desires of the nature God gave us), then God can and will hold us "responsible" for it. Hogwash!]
Robert Morey (in the video Calvinism part 1) says that we “can’t have free-will and the inerrancy of God’s Word,” that we can only have one or the other - because, as he says, if God gave people free-will then those who wrote the Bible would have made a bunch of mistakes. Interesting. I've never heard that one before. So a "sovereign" God couldn't have made sure mistakes didn't get made? How sovereign is that!?!
Amanda Farmer (in her book, "Once an Insider, Now without a Church Home", see my review here) quotes her Calvinist pastor: "'I want to ask you [Amanda] one last question,' Joshua focuses on the issue of moral responsibility. 'Why do you so strongly insist that ‘one must have a free choice in order to be morally responsible’?'” [See! Violating the laws of logic and commonsense and justice and moral responsibility, Calvinists have been brainwashed into thinking that people don't have to have the ability to make real choices among real options in order to be held truly accountable for their "choices." It's a sinister level of deception, especially considering the damage it does to God's character, His justice, and trustworthiness.]
Vincent Cheung (The Problem of Evil): "…man is morally responsible even if he lacks moral ability; that is, man must obey God even if he cannot obey God. It is sinful for a person to disobey God whether or not he has the ability to do otherwise. Thus moral responsibility is not grounded on moral ability or on free will; rather, moral responsibility is grounded on God's sovereignty – man must obey God's commands because God says that man must obey, and whether or not he has the ability to obey is irrelevant...
Scripture teaches that God's will determines everything. Nothing exists or happens without God, not merely permitting, but actively willing it to exist or happen … God controls not only natural events, but he also controls all human affairs and decisions…
God controls everything that is and everything that happens. There is not one thing that happens that he has not actively decreed – not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed the existence of evil, he has not merely permitted it, as if anything can originate and happen apart from his will and power… God decreed evil ultimately for his own glory, although it is not necessary to know or to state this reason to defend Christianity from the problem evil… Although the evil we are speaking of is indeed negative, the ultimate end, which is the glory of God, is positive."
John Calvin, (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God): "But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils... [however] God may be free of guilt in doing the very thing that He condemns in Satan and the reprobate and which is to be condemned by men... Hence, since the criminal misdeeds by men proceed from God with a cause that is just, though perhaps unknown to us, though the first cause of all things is His will, I nevertheless deny that he is the author of sin." [You can deny it all you want, Calvin, but it's what your theology undeniable teaches, no matter how you try to spin or soften it.]
"... What I have maintained about the diversity of causes must not be forgotten: the proximate cause is one thing, the remote cause another... For what man wickedly perpetrates, incited by ambition or avarice or lust or some other depraved motive, since God does it by his hand with a righteous though perhaps hidden purpose - this cannot be equated with the term sin. Sin in man is made by perfidy, cruelty, pride, intemperance, envy, blind love of self, any kind of depraved lust. Nothing like this is to be found in God." [All he's saying here is that what's sin for man is not sin for God, that God can cause whatever evil He wants and we cannot call it sin because He doesn't have our sin nature. (Can you not see how twisted this is? And it makes me wonder how much evil God would have to do before He is actually considered evil?) And he's saying that the idea of two causes (proximate and remote) also excuses God from being the author of sin, that even though God remotely "ordains" (preplans, orchestrates, controls, causes) our sins, we are responsible for them since we are the ones who actually did it. This is like saying that the robot who bombed a village is responsible for killing all those people, instead of the programmer who programmed the robot to do it. Nonsense and hogwash!!!]
Gordan H. Clark (Religion, Reason, and Revelation): “I wish very frankly and pointedly to assert that if a man gets drunk and shoots his family, it was the will of God that he should do it… Let it be unequivocally said that this view certainly makes God the cause of sin. God is the sole ultimate cause of everything…”
And from Predestination: “[Some people] do not wish to extend God’s power over evil things, and particularly over moral evils… [But] the Bible therefore explicitly teaches that God creates sin.”
John Calvin (Institutes, book 1, chapter 16): "all things are ordered by the counsel and certain arrangement of God... produced by the will of God ... [and so if] a merchant, after entering a forest in company with trust-worthy individuals, imprudently strays from his companions and wanders bewildered till he falls into a den of robbers and is murdered, his death was not only foreseen by the eye of God, but had been fixed by his decree... The Providence of God [guided him to that end]."
A Calvinist grandfather-to-be said this about his unborn grandchild (see here, and my post about it): "This is an ultrasound photo of our first grandbaby... And even though I love this baby, I know God may not and may [have] created it for damnation." [So this grandfather is more loving than God? And he chooses to love someone that God might hate? Wouldn't that be dishonoring to God, to love what He hates?] And apparently, he also said that God may have even decreed his unborn grandchild to be a mass murderer.
And he also said this about God decreeing rape: “God must then direct the rapist not just who to rape but how to perform the rape and how long… Amen, but I would go even farther than that, God originated every detail in His mind from all eternity and decreed it to be so.” And "God can do what He chooses to do with His creation" and "God is not ashamed of Himself so why should I be."
From a commenter I'll call RadCT in a reddit post (see my post on it): "In the Bible, there is no verse that says that God does NOT author sin. And in fact, He Himself says in various verses that He is the direct cause of man's sins... Sin is when we break God's laws. But since He didn't give Himself these laws - since He didn't tell Himself that He can't do those things - then it's not sin for Him to do them... God gets to decide what's just and what's not. So even if something seems unjust to us, it doesn't mean it is unjust. Because it might be just in God's judgment. [Then how in the world can we follow His many biblical commands to seek/do justice, if we can't tell the difference between just and unjust because there might not be one!?!]... Non-Calvinists try to say that God is not responsible for sin and evil, but He Himself happily takes responsibility for those things. You seem to be wondering why God can hold us accountable for our sins if He predestines our sins... [But] Don’t ask that. You are only human and have no right to question God. A clay jar does not question the one who made it... I know this isn't an easy truth to accept, but it's still truth.... Choices do matter. They've just been predestined by God for us... maybe you just dislike Calvinism on an emotional level. I know it's hard to accept emotionally. I understand. And I am willing to talk to you about it more. We do have choices in life; they're just choices that we have not freely willed."
The Calvinist Filemon responds with “The answer is Yes... Now using the negative logic, I ask you, ‘If God hadn’t wanted this abortion to happen, do you think it would ever have happened?’ And as evil as it is, the abortion was no more evil than the death of Jesus, which was the worst sin ever committed on earth. And I ask you, ‘Who did plan this death and who controlled everything and everybody to fulfil His plan?’"
Rhutchin (another Calvinist) affirms Filemon: “Even Fromoverhere knows that God is always present at every abortion and has the power to stop any abortion at any time. It is God’s choice to have the abortion continue, and because God chooses for the abortion to continue, we say that the abortion was God’s will. Calvinists say that God made this decision before He created the world so that it was part of His decree to create.” [A false inference Calvinists make: that because God didn't stop an evil, it means He wanted it and planned it. Bad theology built on their bad definition of sovereignty!]
Theodore Zachariades (as seen in this clip from Soteriology 101): "God works all things after the counsel of His will, even keeping those kings who want to commit adultery from committing so... and when He wants to, He orders those to commit adultery when HE WANTS TO!" (Seriously, watch the clip. You gotta see him. And this almost makes me wonder if he's getting his "get out of jail free" card ready, lining up his excuse.)
Mark Talbot/John Piper (from Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, page 42-44): “God brings about all things in accordance with his will. It isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those that love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects… This includes God’s having even brought about the Nazi’s brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Nadar and even the sexual abuse of a young child... God speaks and then brings his word to pass; he purposes and then does what he has planned. Nothing that exists falls outside of God's ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God's foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil.”
["But," claims the Calvinist, "we're not saying that He's the author of evil." Hogwash! Keep in mind that God causing natural "evils" like storms or diseases - something Calvinists always appeal to - is nowhere near the same thing as God causing moral evils and sins, the things He commands us not to do. To cause a natural calamity does not violate a command He gave, but to cause sin does. Also, for God to put people in situations that cause them to act out the self-chosen sin in their hearts is not the same thing as God putting the sin in their hearts, preplanning and orchestrating their sins. In the first one, God just pushes them to make their decision, but in the second one (Calvinism) God preplans, causes, controls their decision. Big difference. And once again, how much more of a hand would Calvi-god have to have in evil - how much more than foreordaining, creating, and instigating it - to be considered evil himself? Is any level he plays in it okay, merely because "he's god"?]
Contradictorily, Peter Ditzel ("What is God doing in this trouble") says that everything, even evil, is by God's decree... but then he says that all the "conspiracy theories" of 2020 are a "sign of faithlessness," that even Christians don't realize that God ordained everything that happens. He calls Christians out for not accepting that God Himself brought all of the problems of 2020 on us.
So then, by his own theology, God Himself ordained the faithless conspiracy theories that he criticizes people for. And so as a Calvinist, why is he not accepting that God Himself brought all those conspiracy theories on us?
[I'm not saying that God doesn't and can't bring social problems or natural disasters on us - those kinds of "evils" - but what I have a problem with is when Calvinists claim that because God causes those kinds of natural evils, it proves He also causes moral evils. As I just said above, it's one thing for God to cause a natural "evil," but it's a far different thing for Him to cause a moral evil.]
PHIL: ...Is God equally in control over evil things as He is over everything else?
JOHN: Well of course; He controls everything. He’s in complete control of evil. The devil is God’s devil; he’s totally controlled by God. The world is controlled by God. Every single movement, as R.C. said, of every molecule is controlled by God, and a whole lot of it is evil. But if He didn’t control that, then it wouldn’t do any good to control only the good part because you’d be overwhelmed by the evil. [So if God didn't control all evil then it would overwhelm us!?! How does that make sense? Is God not powerful enough, in the Calvinist's eyes, to hold back evil He doesn't cause? This is actually a "tiny God" view: the idea that God has to cause/control all evil, or else evil would be too powerful for Him.]
PHIL: Right. That’s what I always say to people who are troubled by this idea, is that if you don’t believe God is in control over evil, it’s outside His control, that’s a frightening thought to me. [False dichotomy: "Either God controls all evil, or else it's totally out of His control." And wouldn't it be more frightening to have a God who causes evil than for Him to allow men to cause evil? If men cause it, then we can still trust God and seek comfort from God. But if God causes it, then who can we really trust and turn to for comfort? Would you rather have man against you or God against you? Man be untrustworthy or God be untrustworthy? Man be evil or God be evil? Honestly, I don't think Calvinists worship God because they really love Him and trust Him, but because they're afraid of what will happen if they don't, afraid of being non-elect.]
On the other hand, to say He is in control over it, that’s a problem for theologians. How do you exonerate God’s righteousness and at the same time say He is in control over evil? [Simple: By remembering that "in control over evil" doesn't mean "controlling evil," as Calvinists think.]
JOHN: I think God, in putting Himself on display for His own glory, necessarily had to allow for evil, or a whole aspect of His nature would never have been manifest. It would never have been known, and He would never have been praised for it... It’s only when you have sin, it’s only when you have fallen people that God can show His wrath—which is an essential part of His nature for which we give Him glory... [Calvinists believe that God needed sinners to punish in order to show off His justice. But what does God Himself say in Romans 3:25-26 about how He chose to demonstrate His justice?]
... JOHN: Yeah. And you know, if you talk about worship, I don’t know any doctrine that fuels worship more than the doctrine of providence... my current worship is fueled by what is going on as God providentially orders all the issues of my life... That’s a divine tranquilizer. That takes [away] all the fear, all the worry..." [Even the fear that maybe you're not really one of the elect because you can't know for sure until you're dead? Even the fear that maybe your loved ones aren't elect but there's nothing anyone can do about it? Even your worry about what kind of God would "ordain" your spouse to cheat on you or your parents to abuse you, and how could you possibly trust a God like that? Even the fear that God might have given you "evanescent grace," only to take it away later and then to punish you more strongly in hell?]
The Calvinist pastor at my ex-church (paraphrased summary): "God ordains the wickedness that wicked people do, for His purposes and His glory."... And "God ordained everything that happened in your life, even all the tragedies, even childhood abuse. It was His 'Plan A' for your life. For His glory and His purposes, for your good, and because He knew what it would take to humble you. So you just have to trust Him." (This is the sermon that did me in, when I knew I was done with him. See this post about it.)
In an August 2015 sermon, my ex-pastor said (exact quote), "John Flavel and Thomas Merton, 2 British pastors back in the 1600's, said that when it comes to the issue of evil and suffering, frankly we ask the wrong question. We ask 'Why is there so much suffering, so much tragedy and evil, why are things such a mess?' They turn the question around and ask - considering the extent of human rebellion and wickedness, the real question is - 'Why is there so much good?' Why does God still let us see sunsets? Why does God still let us experience the warmth and love of family and friends? Why does He still redeem some for His own glory and save them from an eternity in hell?'" [So as long as we deflect from the hard questions and ignore the fate of the non-elect, it's all good!]
And in Sept. 2016: “To be alive is often to be on a brand-new journey, for good or bad, difficult or not. The question is ‘Do we really believe our theology, that God is sovereign, that He controls every detail of the universe, that He knows the good from the bad, that He has ordained it in our lives.'… God is all-powerful. He knows exactly what He is doing. He’s sovereign and in control of every detail of the universe, including our destinies.”
And in Feb 2014: “There is nothing He cannot forgive, be it child abuse, murder, rape, adultery, cheating, defying, betrayal… [and later he says:] The book of Numbers is all about who God is… A God who ordains everything that comes to pass for His own glory. A God who is not watching history; He’s making history. A God who doesn’t sit back and just look. He’s a God who ordains everything that comes to pass to line up with His plan for His glory.” [A god who "ordains everything for his own glory" is a god who ordained all the "child abuse, murder, rape, adultery, cheating, defying, betrayal" because it's glorifying to him. And that's a god we should be terrified of, not worship.]
And if that's not enough, from my Calvinist ex-pastor's March 2014 sermon about finding hope in hard times: “God is on the throne! Random evil doesn’t just happen to people. Random loss doesn’t just occur in our lives. God is in control of each aspect of every detail, right down to our salvation, right down to our health, and jobs, and employment, and our spouse and our children and our livelihood.
… God is sovereign over history… Arthur Pink wrote a book called The Sovereignty of God, and he said that the sovereignty of God – His absolute control of every atom of the universe - is designed to inspire hope… Random evil doesn’t just occur. God is sovereign over history.
… God is sovereign over our losses… No matter what God has taken away from us, God is sovereign over loss. Why is this such a big deal? You see, too often we want to do what I call 'get God off the hook' theology. We want to get God off the hook, saying 'God didn’t do this.' I remember a pastor after 9-11 who got up the next week and banged on his pulpit and said 'Look it, 9-11, planes going into buildings - God didn’t do this!!!' We want to get God off the hook, and every time we try to, God puts Himself back on the hook in the Bible and says, 'Yes, I did!' [Do you hear what he's saying? That God deliberately caused 9-11. Not allowed, but caused. Because sovereignty, in Calvinism, is about God preplanning, causing, controlling, orchestrating everything that happens, every action in the universe, including sin and evil.]
… God is sovereign over those who seek to harm us. Who of us hasn’t been harmed by somebody?... We’ve had people betray, lie, steal, vilify, slander, and do unspeakable things to us. Some of us have undergone horrific abuse at the hands of parents or aunts or uncles or brothers. God is sovereign over those who seek to harm us.
That could not be said more clearly than [in the Bible] where it describes Antiochus Epiphanes and what a wretched, evil, brutal man he is… and the point of the text is that it was God who brought him to the world stage… [And like in Joseph’s life] it was God who ordained [all the bad that happened to him]. [And so likewise, "It was God who brought your abuser to you, who ordained the horrific abuse they did to you." Filthy hogwash! (... taking a deep breath now, calming myself down...)]
God is sovereign over those who seek to do us harm. That means, friends, that there is no such thing as random evil or random acts of tragedy.” [So it's supposed to be more comforting that God preplans and causes evil than that He allows it to happen, allows men to make terrible decisions He doesn't want!?! It’s one thing for God to not want evil but to allow it anyway and to then use people’s self-chosen evil for His purposes, to work it into good. But it a totally different thing for Calvinism's god to preplan, want, cause, orchestrate, control, and be glorified by evil – evil he commands us not to do but then causes us to do, giving us no chance or ability to do anything differently – and then he punishes us for doing what he caused us to do, what we had no control or choice about. This is very different than allowing people to make their own choices - choices God didn't want nor plan nor cause - and then working our choices into His plans. One of those Gods can be trusted, the other god can't. One of those Gods is truly good, the other god is evil disguised as good.]
“By the way, I think that those who get this best are the English Puritans… they understood about God using evil people in our lives [once again, "using" is one thing, "causing" is another]… that God does it for a reason, for example, to bring us to faith in Christ, or to refine us, or to help us become holy, or to strip us of pride, or to be able to comfort others who’ve gone through similar circumstances… John Flavel in The Mystery of God’s Providence says '… In all the sad and afflictive providences that befall you, eye God as the author. Set before you the sovereignty of God…' Amen!?!”
Want another one? From my ex-pastor's October 2019 sermon on forgiveness: "How you handle and respond to mistreatment - when someone has hurt you, wounded you, lied about you, betrayed you, abused you - or me - how I respond directly reflects what I really believe about God deep down inside.
The ability to forgive...requires a proper understanding of who God is and His providence in our lives - it's critical - and of God's authority in your life. Look it, for anyone to say -and we've all said it or thought it - for any of us to say that we're not going to forgive, what we're really saying is this: 'God, You had NO RIGHT to bring that into my life.'
... The Bible teaches that God sometimes strategically uses sinful people in our lives to refine us and humble us, to do His good work in our lives. [It's one thing for God to allow evil He doesn't want - allowing it because He gave us the free-will to make choices - and then to use it for good in our lives. But it's a completely different thing in Calvinism for God to preplan, cause, control, orchestrate all the evil, sinful things - things He commands us not to do but causes us to do and then will punish us for doing even though we had no ability to do otherwise. This is what Calvinists really mean when they say God "uses" (or "allows" or "brings") wickedness in our lives.]
It's not a very appealing teaching, necessarily. And it's not very common to read it or hear it in the American evangelical world. You almost get the sense that if anything is unpleasant your life - whether disease or illness or betrayal or a turn of career or health or whatever - listen to the evangelical talk and what you'll typically hear is 'Satan's out to get me. The Evil One's been working overtime to get me.' Maybe. But Satan only exists under God's authority. [In Calvinism, God is not just "in authority" over Satan, but He controls Satan's will and causes Satan's actions.]
... One of the things the Puritans got really, really well was God's providence, God's sovereignty, God's authority... They understood that God sovereignly chooses to use evil people and sinful people in our lives as believers, if we know Christ, ON PURPOSE to humble us and teach us dependence on Him. Not every evil person that comes against you is automatically completely of Satan. God is orchestrating events and He's still sovereign over the process. [In Calvinism, "sovereign" means that God preplans, controls, and causes all things, even sin and evil. And it's one thing for God to cause natural "evils" like storms, illnesses, famines, etc., but it's a completely different thing in Calvinism for God to cause moral evils He commands us not to do. Natural evils and moral evils are not in the same category.]
... Biblical forgiveness is an affirmation that God is good and that He has A RIGHT to use ANYBODY in our lives for His purpose, His glory, and for our good... Sometimes He will use evil, sinful people to get us where He wants to get us."
And just in case he wasn't clear enough, here's a section from my ex-pastor's August 2015 sermon about God "ordaining" suffering: "God is all powerful and He doesn't owe us explanations... [Some people] say that evil and suffering are the result of [free-will choices]... [But] the most famous American theologian in our history, Jonathan Edwards, spent a lot of time thinking about suffering and God's sovereignty and came up with two inescapable conclusions that are worth thinking on, enumerating on, and chewing on again and again. As you think about the tragedies that have struck your life and shaken your world, Jonathan Edwards said that, #1, we have to conclude that God is in full control of every detail of the universe, including the suffering, evil, and tragedy in our lives. God is in full control of everything that happens to us. And #2, God is good and that whatever He does, He does for His own glory and for the advancement of His name among the nations...
The Puritans remind us that we don't need to get God off the hook when it comes to evil and suffering... [We] rush to get God off the hook for human suffering [by saying things like] 'Well, this is not what He really intended; this is not really Plan A.'... And every time we do that, God puts Himself back on the hook and says, 'I am in charge, thank you, and I will run the universe as I see fit, and I don't owe you an explanation.' [He totally contradicts this in a March 2017 sermon when - explaining why the world is full of suffering and evil - he says, "This is NOT PLAN A. This is not the way it was set up. This is the result of human sin and rebellion."]
... Are you trusting God in the midst of your past, present, and future in whatever He has ordained and appointed for you as far as suffering, tragedy, abuse [he totally faltered and paused after saying "abuse", as though he realized how people would respond to him saying that God preplans and causes abuse, terrible moral sins, and then he rushed to bury it by listing these next ones really quickly] or trials or difficulties or illness or disease or betrayal? [Betrayal would be another moral sin. You know, it's one thing for God to cause natural disasters or illnesses because He didn't make laws against these things. But it would be something totally different if He caused moral evils that He commands us not to do. If you listen closely, Calvinists will almost always start by teaching that a sovereign, all-powerful God "ordains" natural disasters and illness (as this pastor did earlier in his sermon) - and then once they prove it from the Bible and get you to accept it, they subtly slip in moral evils later, as if since He causes the one He must also cause the other, as if they are the same kind of "evil." But they are not! Don't fall for this Calvinist bait-and-switch.]
... Or are you murmuring against Him?... You may get an answer someday about why you were abused or why you lost a child or why a spouse walked away. [You may get an answer...!?! Do you understand what this is saying? That God deliberately preplanned, orchestrated, and caused the abuse, young deaths, and divorce, betrayal, adultery in your life, for a reason. It would be one thing for God to allow these things to happen because of free-will, but this pastor already threw out the idea of free-will and instead teaches that "#1, we have to conclude that God is in full control of every detail of the universe, including the suffering, evil, and tragedy in our lives. God is in full control of everything that happens to us. And #2, God is good and that whatever He does, He does for His own glory and for the advancement of His name among the nations." And now he includes abuse, young death, and divorce among the things God controls/causes for His glory and name. Do you realize how twisted and unbiblical this is!?! How destructive it is to God's character and truth!?!]
But, friends, answers at the end of the day don't provide a whole lot of comfort. What provides comfort are promises from God's Word. [Let's see, this god says he wants one thing when he really wants another... he preplans and causes moral evils that he commands us not to do and then he will punish us for doing what we had no control over, no choice about... he causes people to be unbelievers but still "commands" them to repent, but then he punishes them for being the unbelievers he caused them to be...he is just as glorified by evil as he is good... yep, totally trustworthy! We can totally trust the promises that come from a god like this! (Hogwash!)]
... Do you perhaps need to repent of your murmuring and the chip on your shoulder against God, and surrender today and say 'Lord, I don't understand the way You run the universe, and I don't necessarily like it, but You're God and You're good.' It'll make all the difference in your path to healing. All the difference." [So first tell people that God caused them to be abused or cheated on, and then shame them for being upset about it, accusing them of sinning against God. Yep, nothing like some good old, cult-like, religious manipulative-shaming to shut us up! (No wonder there are so many atheists out there!) Besides, if Calvi-god preplans, causes, and controls all moral evils, then what does "good" really mean? "Good" loses all meaning when it looks and acts just like evil.]
... Some of our hearts this morning are breaking. Find refuge and hope in a good and holy God who says 'I have all things under My control. Everything that's going on in your life, or has gone on in your life, or will, I know about and have ordained for you. And you can find comfort and hope and trust Me.'"
But don't worry, John Calvin tells us (Institutes, book, 1, chapter 16) that we'll feel calm and secure (like MacArthur does) believing that all things, even evil things, are deliberately preplanned, controlled, caused by God (even though He'll punish us for it): "This rather is the solace of the faithful, in their adversity, that every thing which they endure is by the ordination and command of God..." [But I wonder how much solace the "faithful" can really have when they can't even be sure if they're truly one of the elect, especially considering their idea of evanescent grace.]
Evanescent grace - a temporary faith given to some non-elect people that feels so real that they think they're really saved, but eventually it's taken away and now they have to face stricter punishment in hell.
John Calvin (Institutes, book 3, chapter 2, emphasis added): "I am aware it seems unaccountable to some how faith is attributed to the reprobate, seeing that it is declared by Paul to be one of the fruits of election; and yet the difficulty is easily solved: for though none are enlightened into faith, and truly feel the efficacy of the Gospel, with the exception of those who are fore-ordained to salvation, yet experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself [Oh, the blasphemy!] a temporary faith, is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of his goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption."
And from book 3, chapter 24: "... there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness."
[Calvinists better hope they didn't get the evanescent kind of grace. But sadly, they'll never know for sure until they die and wake up in heaven or hell. Now what was that again about the "solace of the faithful"?
If you've got a God who would trick you like this - who would cause you to believe a lie - can He really be trusted? Can His Word really be trusted? Can you trust any belief you have, when it could be a God-given deception? Is that kind of God really worthy of devotion and worship?]
A huge contradiction of John Calvin:
About the actions of wicked people, Calvin says (Institutes, book 1, chapter 17) "I deny that they serve the will of God."
He says that we cannot say that "he who has been carried away by a wicked mind are performing service on the order of God" because the evil person is "only following his own malignant desires," not acting in obedience.
He even says (book 1, chapter 11) that "Whence had idols their origin, but from the will of man?"
So after saying that everything (even our utterances, all evil, everything we do) is controlled by and ordained by God, according to His Will and purposes and pleasure (he even says that "prudence and folly are instruments of divine dispensation," that God either causes us to be prudent and safe or to be foolish and to bring disaster on ourselves)... he now says that wicked men doing wicked things are not controlled by God and that idol worship comes from the will of man, not God. What the...!?!
And then in chapter 18, he contradicts himself again when he says "The sum of the whole is this, - since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence; so that he not only exerts his power in the elect, who are guided by the Holy Spirit, but also forces the reprobate to do him service."
So my favorite contradiction of his, out of the many:
"everything done in the world is according to His decree [and] the wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined [and] his will is the most perfect cause of all things"... but "I deny that [wicked men] serve the will of God. For we cannot say that he who is carried away by a wicked mind performs service on the order of God" ... and yet "the reprobate do him service."
Ha ha ha, that's rich!
Basically, Calvin's theology is "Everything that happens is done by the Will of God, by the hand of God. We can't do anything, even evil things, unless God wills it to happen. But if we do evil, it's not God's Will, even though God controls all we do and we can't do any evil unless God wills it. And if you don't agree with me then you're a bad, unhumble Christian who dishonors God, and I'm gonna burn you at the stake with green wood that takes longer to burn."
