Things My Calvinist Pastor Said #4: God's Love Saves Some But Not Others
(This "Things My Calvinist Pastor Said" series is a breakdown on this much longer post: "We Left Our Church Because of Calvinism," which was written last year but updated July 2020. They are almost exact quotes. All memes were created with imgflip.)
4. "God didn't have to save any of us. But in His love and sovereignty, He chose to elect some to salvation, even though we are depraved and wicked and in rebellion against Him. But none of us deserve to be saved; we all deserve hell. So the real question isn't 'Why would God predestine some people to hell.' It's 'Why did God elect any of us for heaven when no one deserves it?'"
That's right, make people feel like they can't ask the hard questions. And deflect away from the bad stuff. It's much easier to sell your poison when you hide the skull-and-crossbones!
[Skilled Calvinists know how to deflect, to get you to look at one hand while they pull the old switcheroo with the other. Be careful. For example, if you want to know if a pastor is a Calvinist, ask them. If they answer "yes," then they are Calvinist. But if they answer you with a question - such as "Well, you believe God is sovereign, don't you? You believe in grace, don't you?" - then they are very educated Calvinists who are smart enough to know not to admit it because it turns people off.
Here is a story of one Calvinist pastor who knowingly deceived the church he was interviewing at, after they specifically asked him if he was a Calvinist and told them they wouldn't hire him if he was. And he ended up getting the job, even though he is a solid 7-point Calvinist, because he played games with their definition of "Calvinist." This is how tricky they can be! And this should make you mad - a 7-point-Calvinist who basically lied about being a Calvinist by toying with the people's definition of Calvinist. Shame on him! If a pastor answers your "Are you a Calvinist?" question with another question, then you can safely assume they are strong, dogmatic, educated, slippery Calvinists who know they shouldn't admit it to you because you know too much about Calvinism to buy it.
Our pastor is a very dogmatic Calvinist who has been very careful over the last 6 years to never admit it, to never talk about Calvinism directly. Calvinist pastors do this deliberately, to get deep into a church before anyone catches on to their Calvinism. And besides, if a Calvinist pastor never says they're a Calvinist then no one will know to look up Calvinism online for themselves to see what others say about it. Very strategic.]
Okay now, back to Calvi-god showing his "love" to the elect.
My 17-year-old son came up with a great analogy of that kind of "love." Imagine you're a parent with 10 kids. And you have more than enough food to feed all 10 kids. But you decide to choose only one child to feed, and the rest you slowly starve to death. But the worst part is that you had those other 9 kids just so you could hate them and starve them to death, while you tell them that you really do want to feed them, that you want them to live. But it was your plan from the beginning to have them so they could die so that you could show the chosen child how loved they are, by comparison. And because it somehow brings you some kind of sick glory, showing off how "sovereign" you are over everything.
This is Calvinism!
And yep, that's some amazing love, isn't it?
And the Calvinist "death row" illustration is along the same lines, and it doesn't work either. My pastor used this one, too, saying that God's grace and His love for the elect is something like this (paraphrased):
"Imagine there's 100 people on death row, and God walks into the room and graciously chooses to free 10 of them. Was God unfair to spare only a few of them and not the rest, when everyone on death row deserved death? God didn't have to save any of them, but He chose to save some of them because of His amazing love and grace. Without God choosing to save some of them, none of them would have lived, because they all deserved death."
Sounds kinda convincing, right?
But the thing is ... in Calvinism, God didn't just walk in and graciously free some of those on death row, those who were guilty of a horrible crime. He first preplanned and caused them to do the horrible crime that put them on death row in the first place. He made them unable to resist doing the crime, gave them no choice about it, because He predestined it. And what's more, God created those He wasn't going to save specifically so that He could punish them with death. And then after preplanning their crime and causing them to commit it, God then punishes them for it.
And we're supposed to believe this is "gracious" and "loving"!?! "Merciful" and "justice"!?! That it's how God really is? That it coincides with His good, loving, trustworthy, righteous nature?
Bullcrap!
And I'll say it again ... Bullcrap!
Oh, the damage Calvinism does to the Gospel, God's character, and Jesus's amazing sacrifice!
(If "bullcrap" offends you more than Calvinism, then something's wrong.)
[And FYI, Calvinists love to constantly talk about God's grace, about how amazing it is, how wonderful it is, how unconditional it is, or like my Calvinist pastor says, "I love the doctrine of God's grace. His undeserved favor towards wretched sinners like us." ("Doctrines of Grace" is code-word for "I am a dogmatic Calvinist.") Sounds good, right? But what they really mean is that Calvi-god only has grace for the elect. There is no real grace for the non-elect, the majority of the people. "Unconditional grace" does not mean it's for everyone, just that the elect did nothing to get it. But Calvinists will still wax poetic about Calvi-god's "amazing grace," even though it's not for most people because Calvi-god predestined them to hell. Kinda sick, don't ya think!]
And notice that another major problem with Calvinism is that it sets up false dichotomies - two options that you have to choose between, that force you to pick the one that supports Calvinism. In this case, it's "Either God chose some people to be saved or else no one gets saved." And if those are your only two options, then you will be forced to pick that God chose some to get saved, aligning with their idea of election.
But those aren't the only two options. The biblical one is that God made salvation available for everyone and that those who choose to believe, to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, will be saved. But Calvinists do not give you the biblical answer as one of the options. They give you one that you know you have to reject and they give you one that supports Calvinism, and so you inevitably choose the one that supports Calvinism.
They do this also with "Either God is sovereign or you are sovereign" and "Either God is in control or you are in control." And of course, you have to pick that God is sovereign and in control because no Christian would admit that man is sovereign or in control. (Another one is "Either God controls everything or He controls nothing.")
But since you don't think to question their bad definition of sovereignty and "in control," they trap you into their mindset, their backwards theology. Because when they say sovereign and "in control," they mean "God actively controls all things, even our sins and choices and beliefs."
But biblically, sovereignty is about God being the highest authority, the one in control of all things, but He has chosen to not actively control all things. He has chosen to give mankind the right to make real choices, to have some control in and influence over how things go in this world. God has chosen to voluntarily restrain His use of power, His ability to control all things, to work with and through mankind's choices, instead of controlling mankind's choices. But in His sovereignty, He knows how to take whatever we do and work it into His plans. This is how the Bible shows God working, time and time again. NOT actively controlling every detail, such as causing our sins and our rejection of Him. (For more false dichotomies, click here.)
Or they tell you what certain words have to mean, such as predestination, making you think there's no other way to understand it and so you have to accept what they believe about it. (Click here for more on what predestination really means.)
Calvinists suck people in bit by bit, like quicksand, through false dichotomies like this that are set up to support Calvinism. And it works ... because we trust them, we don't even notice the little drips of Calvinism they add here and there, we ignore or explain away the "red flags" we feel in our hearts when they say something that doesn't sound quite right, we don't take the time to compare what they say against the Bible, we get overwhelmed with all the verses they use and don't look them up for ourselves, we read the Bible through the Calvinist glasses they put on us, and because we don't stop to think outside the box they put us in, outside the options they give us, never realizing that they left out the biblical answers from the very beginning. (Also see "When Calvinism's 'Bad Logic' Traps Good Christians." Have I mentioned how much I hate Calvinism!)
Because that's not what's really going on here with Calvinism's belief about God predestining people for hell. In Calvinism, it's not just that God doesn't force what He wants; it's that He actively causes the opposite of what He says He wants. And this is totally different!
The God of the Bible wants all people to be saved and doesn't want anyone to perish. But He doesn't force all people to be saved. He lets us choose. This make sense.
But Calvi-god says that he wants all people to be saved … but then he causes the opposite to happen, deliberately predestining most people to hell. This is a whole different thing than just "not forcing what you want." It's "causing the opposite of what you 'want' because you really want the opposite of what you said you want." Illogical and contradictory.
I can say that I want my husband to fix a broken chair, and yet not force him to do it. Logical.
But I can't say that I want him to fix a broken chair and then force him to hold an ax and chop the chair up into tiny shards of wood. Illogical and contradictory!
But this is what Calvinism does with the Gospel and God's character. It turns it into illogical, contradictory nonsense, but it hides it under layers of logical, biblical-sounding truths. It's "bait and switch," presenting you with a logical, biblical idea that you agree with but then slipping in their incorrect, nonsensical, contradictory garbage. But you aren't aware of it. All you are aware of is the logical, biblical truth you first agreed to, making everything else they say seem logical and biblical to you.
(And if it doesn't seem logical and biblical to you, you simply figure there must be something wrong with you. Not with them or their theology. And to get you to do this – to think there’s something wrong with you, and not Calvinism – they’ll say things like “I know this stuff about predestination and God’s 'sovereign' control, about how He can ordain sin but still hold us accountable for it, about how He ordains evil and created most people for hell but He is still good and just and loving, etc., is hard to understand. Most people have trouble understanding all this stuff. It's human nature to resist things we don't like and don't understand. But just give it time. We don't have to understand it all; we just have to humbly accept it in faith because it’s what the Bible says. And even if you can’t understand it and don’t like it, God can be trusted. He knows how it all works together, and that’s all that matters.”
That's right, make people feel like they can't ask the hard questions. And deflect away from the bad stuff. It's much easier to sell your poison when you hide the skull-and-crossbones!
[Skilled Calvinists know how to deflect, to get you to look at one hand while they pull the old switcheroo with the other. Be careful. For example, if you want to know if a pastor is a Calvinist, ask them. If they answer "yes," then they are Calvinist. But if they answer you with a question - such as "Well, you believe God is sovereign, don't you? You believe in grace, don't you?" - then they are very educated Calvinists who are smart enough to know not to admit it because it turns people off.
Here is a story of one Calvinist pastor who knowingly deceived the church he was interviewing at, after they specifically asked him if he was a Calvinist and told them they wouldn't hire him if he was. And he ended up getting the job, even though he is a solid 7-point Calvinist, because he played games with their definition of "Calvinist." This is how tricky they can be! And this should make you mad - a 7-point-Calvinist who basically lied about being a Calvinist by toying with the people's definition of Calvinist. Shame on him! If a pastor answers your "Are you a Calvinist?" question with another question, then you can safely assume they are strong, dogmatic, educated, slippery Calvinists who know they shouldn't admit it to you because you know too much about Calvinism to buy it.
Our pastor is a very dogmatic Calvinist who has been very careful over the last 6 years to never admit it, to never talk about Calvinism directly. Calvinist pastors do this deliberately, to get deep into a church before anyone catches on to their Calvinism. And besides, if a Calvinist pastor never says they're a Calvinist then no one will know to look up Calvinism online for themselves to see what others say about it. Very strategic.]
Okay now, back to Calvi-god showing his "love" to the elect.
My 17-year-old son came up with a great analogy of that kind of "love." Imagine you're a parent with 10 kids. And you have more than enough food to feed all 10 kids. But you decide to choose only one child to feed, and the rest you slowly starve to death. But the worst part is that you had those other 9 kids just so you could hate them and starve them to death, while you tell them that you really do want to feed them, that you want them to live. But it was your plan from the beginning to have them so they could die so that you could show the chosen child how loved they are, by comparison. And because it somehow brings you some kind of sick glory, showing off how "sovereign" you are over everything.
This is Calvinism!
And yep, that's some amazing love, isn't it?
And the Calvinist "death row" illustration is along the same lines, and it doesn't work either. My pastor used this one, too, saying that God's grace and His love for the elect is something like this (paraphrased):
"Imagine there's 100 people on death row, and God walks into the room and graciously chooses to free 10 of them. Was God unfair to spare only a few of them and not the rest, when everyone on death row deserved death? God didn't have to save any of them, but He chose to save some of them because of His amazing love and grace. Without God choosing to save some of them, none of them would have lived, because they all deserved death."
Sounds kinda convincing, right?
But the thing is ... in Calvinism, God didn't just walk in and graciously free some of those on death row, those who were guilty of a horrible crime. He first preplanned and caused them to do the horrible crime that put them on death row in the first place. He made them unable to resist doing the crime, gave them no choice about it, because He predestined it. And what's more, God created those He wasn't going to save specifically so that He could punish them with death. And then after preplanning their crime and causing them to commit it, God then punishes them for it.
And we're supposed to believe this is "gracious" and "loving"!?! "Merciful" and "justice"!?! That it's how God really is? That it coincides with His good, loving, trustworthy, righteous nature?
Bullcrap!
And I'll say it again ... Bullcrap!
Oh, the damage Calvinism does to the Gospel, God's character, and Jesus's amazing sacrifice!
(If "bullcrap" offends you more than Calvinism, then something's wrong.)
[And FYI, Calvinists love to constantly talk about God's grace, about how amazing it is, how wonderful it is, how unconditional it is, or like my Calvinist pastor says, "I love the doctrine of God's grace. His undeserved favor towards wretched sinners like us." ("Doctrines of Grace" is code-word for "I am a dogmatic Calvinist.") Sounds good, right? But what they really mean is that Calvi-god only has grace for the elect. There is no real grace for the non-elect, the majority of the people. "Unconditional grace" does not mean it's for everyone, just that the elect did nothing to get it. But Calvinists will still wax poetic about Calvi-god's "amazing grace," even though it's not for most people because Calvi-god predestined them to hell. Kinda sick, don't ya think!]
And notice that another major problem with Calvinism is that it sets up false dichotomies - two options that you have to choose between, that force you to pick the one that supports Calvinism. In this case, it's "Either God chose some people to be saved or else no one gets saved." And if those are your only two options, then you will be forced to pick that God chose some to get saved, aligning with their idea of election.
But those aren't the only two options. The biblical one is that God made salvation available for everyone and that those who choose to believe, to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, will be saved. But Calvinists do not give you the biblical answer as one of the options. They give you one that you know you have to reject and they give you one that supports Calvinism, and so you inevitably choose the one that supports Calvinism.
They do this also with "Either God is sovereign or you are sovereign" and "Either God is in control or you are in control." And of course, you have to pick that God is sovereign and in control because no Christian would admit that man is sovereign or in control. (Another one is "Either God controls everything or He controls nothing.")
But since you don't think to question their bad definition of sovereignty and "in control," they trap you into their mindset, their backwards theology. Because when they say sovereign and "in control," they mean "God actively controls all things, even our sins and choices and beliefs."
But biblically, sovereignty is about God being the highest authority, the one in control of all things, but He has chosen to not actively control all things. He has chosen to give mankind the right to make real choices, to have some control in and influence over how things go in this world. God has chosen to voluntarily restrain His use of power, His ability to control all things, to work with and through mankind's choices, instead of controlling mankind's choices. But in His sovereignty, He knows how to take whatever we do and work it into His plans. This is how the Bible shows God working, time and time again. NOT actively controlling every detail, such as causing our sins and our rejection of Him. (For more false dichotomies, click here.)
Or they tell you what certain words have to mean, such as predestination, making you think there's no other way to understand it and so you have to accept what they believe about it. (Click here for more on what predestination really means.)
Calvinists suck people in bit by bit, like quicksand, through false dichotomies like this that are set up to support Calvinism. And it works ... because we trust them, we don't even notice the little drips of Calvinism they add here and there, we ignore or explain away the "red flags" we feel in our hearts when they say something that doesn't sound quite right, we don't take the time to compare what they say against the Bible, we get overwhelmed with all the verses they use and don't look them up for ourselves, we read the Bible through the Calvinist glasses they put on us, and because we don't stop to think outside the box they put us in, outside the options they give us, never realizing that they left out the biblical answers from the very beginning. (Also see "When Calvinism's 'Bad Logic' Traps Good Christians." Have I mentioned how much I hate Calvinism!)
[From another post of mine, regarding the verse about God wanting all men to be saved (which any rational person would rightly assume means God truly wants all people to be saved and so, therefore, He made salvation truly available for all, as evidenced in other verses) ...
To explain how the "God wants all men to be saved, He doesn't want anyone to perish" verse (2 Peter 3:9) fits with their idea of God predestining people for hell, my pastor basically put it this way: "How can God say He wants all people to be saved if He predestines people for hell? Because God doesn't always get what He wants. He can want things to happen, but this doesn't mean He has to cause them to happen. So God can want all people to be saved, but not cause all people to be saved."
The thing is, this is fine logic. It's true that God doesn't always cause the things He wants to happen. He wants all people to be saved, but He doesn't cause all people to be saved.
This is true! And this is how they trap you, by presenting you with a truth you agree with while secretly slipping in their nonsense.
The thing is, this is fine logic. It's true that God doesn't always cause the things He wants to happen. He wants all people to be saved, but He doesn't cause all people to be saved.
This is true! And this is how they trap you, by presenting you with a truth you agree with while secretly slipping in their nonsense.
Because that's not what's really going on here with Calvinism's belief about God predestining people for hell. In Calvinism, it's not just that God doesn't force what He wants; it's that He actively causes the opposite of what He says He wants. And this is totally different!
The God of the Bible wants all people to be saved and doesn't want anyone to perish. But He doesn't force all people to be saved. He lets us choose. This make sense.
But Calvi-god says that he wants all people to be saved … but then he causes the opposite to happen, deliberately predestining most people to hell. This is a whole different thing than just "not forcing what you want." It's "causing the opposite of what you 'want' because you really want the opposite of what you said you want." Illogical and contradictory.
I can say that I want my husband to fix a broken chair, and yet not force him to do it. Logical.
But I can't say that I want him to fix a broken chair and then force him to hold an ax and chop the chair up into tiny shards of wood. Illogical and contradictory!
But this is what Calvinism does with the Gospel and God's character. It turns it into illogical, contradictory nonsense, but it hides it under layers of logical, biblical-sounding truths. It's "bait and switch," presenting you with a logical, biblical idea that you agree with but then slipping in their incorrect, nonsensical, contradictory garbage. But you aren't aware of it. All you are aware of is the logical, biblical truth you first agreed to, making everything else they say seem logical and biblical to you.
(And if it doesn't seem logical and biblical to you, you simply figure there must be something wrong with you. Not with them or their theology. And to get you to do this – to think there’s something wrong with you, and not Calvinism – they’ll say things like “I know this stuff about predestination and God’s 'sovereign' control, about how He can ordain sin but still hold us accountable for it, about how He ordains evil and created most people for hell but He is still good and just and loving, etc., is hard to understand. Most people have trouble understanding all this stuff. It's human nature to resist things we don't like and don't understand. But just give it time. We don't have to understand it all; we just have to humbly accept it in faith because it’s what the Bible says. And even if you can’t understand it and don’t like it, God can be trusted. He knows how it all works together, and that’s all that matters.”
You see how they spin it from the very beginning to make it about your inability to understand it or about your feelings of not liking it, never considering that the real problem is that there might be something wrong with their theology. And if you just “give it time” – meaning "when you mature in the faith and put 'what the Bible says' over your own feelings" – then you’ll accept it, like a good, humble Christian.
Yes, this stuff would be good advice … if Calvinism was true. But since it’s not, all of this is just manipulation!)
If it's for Calvi-god's glory and pleasure that he predestines people to hell, then he really does want people in hell. And so he is lying when he says he wants all to be saved, that he wants none to perish.
If it's for Calvi-god's glory and pleasure that he predestines people to hell, then he really does want people in hell. And so he is lying when he says he wants all to be saved, that he wants none to perish.
But thankfully, Calvi-god is NOT the God of the Bible!]
