Calvinist Bad Logic #4: God's Foreknowledge of Man's "Choice"
Bad Logic #4: Calvinists believe that God foreknowing that something bad would happen but choosing not to stop it is basically the same thing as Him preplanning, ordaining, causing it to happen.
So to them, it's not that a person made their own choice to murder, that God knew it would happen, allowed it to happen, and worked their bad choice into His plans. It's that because God foreknew the person would murder and He didn't stop them from doing it, then He "ordained" it to happen (He wanted it to happen, He preplanned that it would happen, locked it in so that nothing else could happen) and the person had no choice but to do what God "ordained."
They believe that God basically works the circumstances out to cause us to sin the way He planned/wants us to sin, by giving us the sinning nature that has the sinful desires He wants us to have and by surrounding us with the circumstances that cause us to carry out the sin He planned for us to do. It all happens just as God "planned," even our sins. Therefore, there really is no such thing as "choice."
They are putting the cart before the horse, saying that since God's foreknowledge comes first then it means He preplanned it all, which means that we don't really make "choices," that we just carry out the plans God made.
When in reality, our choices are real choices. And God, in His foreknowledge, knew how to incorporate our choices into His plans and to work His plans (to a degree) around our choices. We were never "locked in" to the path God planned, because God planned His path (to a degree) around the choices He knew we'd make.
[Here is how dogmatic Calvinists view "choices" (this is a comment from a Soteriology 101 post):
"That's the distinction between [non-Calvinists] and Calvinists. Calvinists say that people do not have real choices; they can only do what they desire."
But here's the thing about our "desires" (this is another bit of their deception, making it sound like they're saying that "desires" means that we choose what we want, that we make choices based on our feelings):
Calvi-god is the one who gives people their natures - the "sin nature" that the non-elect get or the "saved/repentant nature" that the elect get. And the nature he gives us determines the desires we have. Each nature has its own set of built-in desires, and you can never desire something that is outside your Calvi-god-given nature.
Therefore, the non-elect who get the "sin nature" can only always want to sin and choose to sin because the desire to sin and to rebel against God comes with the "sin nature." In fact, the "sin nature" contains only the desire to sin and rebel against God, never the desire to obey or do good or want God. (Only the elected people who were given the "saved/repentant nature" can want to obey God and do good and seek God, because that's the only nature that contains those desires.)
How is that a choice!?! When Calvi-god gives you the nature he predestined for you, and you can only operate according to the desires that the nature contains!?!
"But," the Calvinist says, "because the sinner 'wanted' to sin and 'chose' to sin, according to their desires, they are accountable for their sin!"
What the ****!?! (Insert four-letter word of your choice! Or whatever Calvi-god "ordained" you to put in there. Seriously, Calvinists, think about it! What's the first four-letter word you thought of? Do you not realize that your theology says that God Himself caused you to think of that word? What does that say about Him? And this is just a tiny, little, microscopic "sin," compared to bigger sins, that your Calvi-god caused!)
So never trust when a Calvinist says "Of course we can make choices, according to our desires." That's a deceptive cover-up for the fact that Calvi-god causes people to sin and to be unbelievers. It's meant to make it sound like sinners really do "deserve" the punishment they get, that Calvi-god is not unfair or unjust for putting people in hell even though he caused them to be sinners and unbelievers.
It's hogwash!!!]
Okay now, back to choices and God's plans. I say that just because God knew what we'd do and allowed us to do it and worked it into His plans doesn't mean He preplanned it to happen and caused it to happen that way, or that we don't really have real choices and that nothing different could have happened. What happened is based on our choices, not what God preplanned for us.
And yes, I believe God works circumstances into His plans and He can "encourage" us to act out the sin that's in our hearts (to expose it and to use it for His plans), but that doesn't mean that He put the sin in our hearts to begin with or that we had no choice. We sin because we want to sin, not because God "ordained" it.
But that is a big difference between Calvinists and non-Calvinists.
Non-Calvinists (anti-Calvinists) say that the person themselves is responsible for the sinful desires and that God does not want us to sin or preplan for us to sin or cause us to be sinful (but He does let us act our the sin that's in our hearts and He can put it to good use, for His plans).
Whereas Calvinists say (but hide it carefully) that God Himself plans our sins from the very beginning. He basically puts the sinful desires in our hearts (by giving us the sin nature that will always only want to sin and by working out the conditions around us just right so that we will inevitably choose the sin He preplanned), and He causes us to carry it out. And the person could NEVER have chosen NOT to sin because God ordained the sin from the very beginning and made sure it would happen.
And then they'll say something stupid like "God 'ordained' the sin but He is not the author of the sin." To cover for their view that God causes sin.
It's rambling, deceptive nonsense, meant to trap unsuspecting people who aren't really sure what they're saying about God.
[And of course, it's not that they are deliberately trying to "trap" people; but they have convinced themselves that it's true and that it's their job to spread this "truth" to others. Like a good, faithful, "God-honoring" Calvinist!
And for the record, I have a lot of respect for the average, unaware, misled "Calvinist" who is simply doing their best to be faithful and to honor God, as instructed by the Calvinist preachers. For the trusting, deceived, misled ones who don't really know enough about what Calvinism really teaches to know that it's not biblical. But I have almost zero respect for the dogmatic Calvinists who are leading others astray, for the ones who see that the Bible says one thing but then they substitute in their own ideas instead, who skillfully twist Scripture to fit their views despite the incredible damage it does to God's character, to Jesus's sacrifice, and to the Gospel.
The teachers of Calvinism will have a lot to answer for, for leading astray the many good-hearted, godly Christians who trust them. But these good-hearted, godly, trusting Christians need to wake up and learn to search the Scriptures for themselves, to see if what they're being told is true or not. Because they will be accountable for allowing themselves to be led astray, for not knowing Scripture well enough to be discerning, and for encouraging the spread of this garbage by going along with it.
I'm just saying'.]
(For all the posts in this series, see the "Intro ..." Or look for "'Calvinist Bad Logic' Series" in the labels on the side-bar. Or find the whole series in one post, "When Calvinism's 'Bad Logic ' Traps Good Christians.")
So to them, it's not that a person made their own choice to murder, that God knew it would happen, allowed it to happen, and worked their bad choice into His plans. It's that because God foreknew the person would murder and He didn't stop them from doing it, then He "ordained" it to happen (He wanted it to happen, He preplanned that it would happen, locked it in so that nothing else could happen) and the person had no choice but to do what God "ordained."
They believe that God basically works the circumstances out to cause us to sin the way He planned/wants us to sin, by giving us the sinning nature that has the sinful desires He wants us to have and by surrounding us with the circumstances that cause us to carry out the sin He planned for us to do. It all happens just as God "planned," even our sins. Therefore, there really is no such thing as "choice."
They are putting the cart before the horse, saying that since God's foreknowledge comes first then it means He preplanned it all, which means that we don't really make "choices," that we just carry out the plans God made.
When in reality, our choices are real choices. And God, in His foreknowledge, knew how to incorporate our choices into His plans and to work His plans (to a degree) around our choices. We were never "locked in" to the path God planned, because God planned His path (to a degree) around the choices He knew we'd make.
[Here is how dogmatic Calvinists view "choices" (this is a comment from a Soteriology 101 post):
"That's the distinction between [non-Calvinists] and Calvinists. Calvinists say that people do not have real choices; they can only do what they desire."
But here's the thing about our "desires" (this is another bit of their deception, making it sound like they're saying that "desires" means that we choose what we want, that we make choices based on our feelings):
Calvi-god is the one who gives people their natures - the "sin nature" that the non-elect get or the "saved/repentant nature" that the elect get. And the nature he gives us determines the desires we have. Each nature has its own set of built-in desires, and you can never desire something that is outside your Calvi-god-given nature.
Therefore, the non-elect who get the "sin nature" can only always want to sin and choose to sin because the desire to sin and to rebel against God comes with the "sin nature." In fact, the "sin nature" contains only the desire to sin and rebel against God, never the desire to obey or do good or want God. (Only the elected people who were given the "saved/repentant nature" can want to obey God and do good and seek God, because that's the only nature that contains those desires.)
How is that a choice!?! When Calvi-god gives you the nature he predestined for you, and you can only operate according to the desires that the nature contains!?!
"But," the Calvinist says, "because the sinner 'wanted' to sin and 'chose' to sin, according to their desires, they are accountable for their sin!"
What the ****!?! (Insert four-letter word of your choice! Or whatever Calvi-god "ordained" you to put in there. Seriously, Calvinists, think about it! What's the first four-letter word you thought of? Do you not realize that your theology says that God Himself caused you to think of that word? What does that say about Him? And this is just a tiny, little, microscopic "sin," compared to bigger sins, that your Calvi-god caused!)
So never trust when a Calvinist says "Of course we can make choices, according to our desires." That's a deceptive cover-up for the fact that Calvi-god causes people to sin and to be unbelievers. It's meant to make it sound like sinners really do "deserve" the punishment they get, that Calvi-god is not unfair or unjust for putting people in hell even though he caused them to be sinners and unbelievers.
It's hogwash!!!]
Okay now, back to choices and God's plans. I say that just because God knew what we'd do and allowed us to do it and worked it into His plans doesn't mean He preplanned it to happen and caused it to happen that way, or that we don't really have real choices and that nothing different could have happened. What happened is based on our choices, not what God preplanned for us.
And yes, I believe God works circumstances into His plans and He can "encourage" us to act out the sin that's in our hearts (to expose it and to use it for His plans), but that doesn't mean that He put the sin in our hearts to begin with or that we had no choice. We sin because we want to sin, not because God "ordained" it.
But that is a big difference between Calvinists and non-Calvinists.
Non-Calvinists (anti-Calvinists) say that the person themselves is responsible for the sinful desires and that God does not want us to sin or preplan for us to sin or cause us to be sinful (but He does let us act our the sin that's in our hearts and He can put it to good use, for His plans).
Whereas Calvinists say (but hide it carefully) that God Himself plans our sins from the very beginning. He basically puts the sinful desires in our hearts (by giving us the sin nature that will always only want to sin and by working out the conditions around us just right so that we will inevitably choose the sin He preplanned), and He causes us to carry it out. And the person could NEVER have chosen NOT to sin because God ordained the sin from the very beginning and made sure it would happen.
And then they'll say something stupid like "God 'ordained' the sin but He is not the author of the sin." To cover for their view that God causes sin.
It's rambling, deceptive nonsense, meant to trap unsuspecting people who aren't really sure what they're saying about God.
[And of course, it's not that they are deliberately trying to "trap" people; but they have convinced themselves that it's true and that it's their job to spread this "truth" to others. Like a good, faithful, "God-honoring" Calvinist!
And for the record, I have a lot of respect for the average, unaware, misled "Calvinist" who is simply doing their best to be faithful and to honor God, as instructed by the Calvinist preachers. For the trusting, deceived, misled ones who don't really know enough about what Calvinism really teaches to know that it's not biblical. But I have almost zero respect for the dogmatic Calvinists who are leading others astray, for the ones who see that the Bible says one thing but then they substitute in their own ideas instead, who skillfully twist Scripture to fit their views despite the incredible damage it does to God's character, to Jesus's sacrifice, and to the Gospel.
The teachers of Calvinism will have a lot to answer for, for leading astray the many good-hearted, godly Christians who trust them. But these good-hearted, godly, trusting Christians need to wake up and learn to search the Scriptures for themselves, to see if what they're being told is true or not. Because they will be accountable for allowing themselves to be led astray, for not knowing Scripture well enough to be discerning, and for encouraging the spread of this garbage by going along with it.
I'm just saying'.]
(For all the posts in this series, see the "Intro ..." Or look for "'Calvinist Bad Logic' Series" in the labels on the side-bar. Or find the whole series in one post, "When Calvinism's 'Bad Logic ' Traps Good Christians.")
