Comments from the post "Nominal Calvinism"

 Here are some comments (mostly mine) from Soteriology 101's post called "Nominal Calvinism", lightly edited for better clarity (and sorry about the highlighting, I can't undo it):

Graceadict says:

Most of us here have been where these Calvinist are right now, drinking the kool aid of Calvinism until we read the scriptures without the Calvi-glasses on and were horrified at what we saw.  We saw how twisted and tortured the Calvinist interpretation really was.  How it distorts so many of God’s attributes.

We experienced the oppression forced on us by clever word tactics used over and over again.  They tried to make us believe Calvinism was the only way scripture could be seen and that only the humble, the elect, the studied would see this secret knowledge.  And yes, there are many contradictions (in Calvinism) but ... "That is a 'mystery,'” they told us, "and you have to be humble enough to hold those contradictions in tension even if the contradictions make God out to be less than truthful, less than holy, less than loving.  Just get over it.  Who are you, O man, to question God?” 

They made us feel like when we questioned what they were saying about God that we were actually questioning God, not just their view of God.  BUT we were NOT.  We saw that God’s Holy name was being blasphemed and it troubled us greatly and still does.

I have been bullied for too long and by too many Calvinists that I can see their tactics coming a long ways off.  Yes, those tactics work on many people, but once you see the light, you will no longer be bullied by them.  I have been where many of these guys are at… and there is no going back.  I have seen what they do.  And here are a few things:

1. Redefine biblical terms ( Love, Grace, Call, Faith, Sovereign, God’s Will, All, World… and the list goes on).  If you give yourself the ability to redefine words to fit your theology, we could make the Bible fit Islam or Hinduism.  The sky is the limit.  It is shameful!

2. They introduce extra-biblical terms, usually “two-word” terms and they just assume those terms to be Biblical.  They, of course, define those extra-Biblical terms to conform to Calvinism ( Limited-Atonement, Unconditional-Election, Sovereign-Grace, Irresistible-Grace, Secret-Will, Effectually-given, Effectual-Call, Particular-Atonement, etc… the list goes on and on).  And they keep adding to it.  Whenever they get boxed-in, they create a new category, a new term, to get around the obvious meaning of Scripture.

3. These tactics, of course, lead to Contradictions and unholy conclusions.  That is when the COVER-UP TACTIC comes out: “Oh that is a mystery ... a tension, a paradox, an antinomy.”  NO!!!  It is a contradiction that only arises because you are mixing error with truth, and the contradiction you have created must now be covered up, so you use “mystery” and other words like that to cover it up, to say "there is nothing to see here, just move on."  The Truth of Scripture does not have all of those contradictions, but the Calvinist system does.

4. Then out comes the false humility – “I am humble enough to accept these mysteries and you must also” –” Who are you, O man, to question God?”  Well, we are not questioning God.  We are questioning the terrible statements YOU are making ABOUT God.  They use that phrase, but what they Actually mean is “Who are you to question me?”  Or they will say about the error they have just tried to push on you that “we are humble enough to admit we do not know everything, that it is a mystery, but you must humble yourself and accept it even if it does not make sense because this is what glorifies God.”  NO!!!  I am done accepting the untrue statements that they try to push onto me by saying it takes humility to accept it and that it glorifies God.  THAT IS A CALVINIST TACTIC to get you to accept a lie, to get you to swallow a poison.  It is discernment that we need in the face of these tactics.  They are skilled at trying to make you feel less than them for not accepting what they are selling.  I have lived in the midst of that for way too long.  I have seen what they are doing.  I have been there.

Conclusion: If I gave myself the liberty that Calvinists give themselves, I could easily make Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism be "totally Biblical.”  That is the scary thing about what they do.  But because they are doing it in large numbers, it seems to make it ok.  But error is still error even if 70% believe it.

I am also aware that many who are still in the Calvinist Camp honestly believe what they are selling.  They are not purposefully being deceptive.  The reason is that they were deceived by someone else.  2 Timothy says that we are in times where people will be “deceiving and being deceived.”  Deceived means you believe that what you are selling is the truth…. so I am not attributing evil motives to most Calvinists.  MOST are simply deceived themselves, BUT they use these tactics none-the-less.  So don’t be deceived or bullied, but instead remember their tactics  (1. Redefine Biblical Terms, 2. New Terms with Calvinist Definitions, 3. Cover over Error with Mystery, 4. False Humility Claims and "Who are you to question God" replies.)

My comment [to another commenter, Eric Smith, who claimed to not be a Calvinist but who was using Calvinist arguments to defend Calvinism in the comment section.  And yes, I know it's snarky and sarcastic, but I am just so tired of Calvinists who come into the comment section acting like they are there to "teach" us a thing or two and that if we just listen to their "brilliant" insights then we'll fall on our faces before them in awe and profusely thank them for showing us the light that we failed to see all the years we read the Bible.  I'm not necessarily saying Eric Smith was like this - he was polite enough - I'm just saying that I don't tolerate the Calvinist nonsense anymore.  When you let Calvinists engage you in their Calvinist games, they run you in circles - in their contradictory, nonsensical circles - until you're so exhausted that you give up.  It's ridiculous and fruitless.  So I don't throw my pearls to pigs anymore.  (Hey, that's not my illustration.  It's Jesus's.)]:

Eric Smith, you say “your readers [of Leighton Flowers' articles at Soteriology 101] believe your conclusions derived from your objections …”  Are you trying to insult all of us who read this blog?  Because that’s what you’re doing, basically accusing us of being unable to think for ourselves, unable to read and understand the Bible for ourselves, blindly accepting whatever Leighton tells us to believe.

So may I be the first to pat you on the back for being more intelligent than the rest of us naive, uneducated simpletons!  Congrats!

And other comments of mine:

Graceadict, your comments totally fit everything I was going through at my Calvinist church.  The manipulation, the shaming, the word games, etc.  You sum it all up well.

And regarding Eric’s subtle assumption that we readers are brainwashed by Leighton, that we get our information about what to believe right from him:

I came to be anti-Calvinistic NOT by hearing anyone talk against Calvinism, but by hearing our Calvinist preacher preach Calvinism and then realizing that it doesn’t fit with what I’ve read in the Bible for the past 30 years.

Thankfully, before our Calvinist pastor was hired, I had read the Bible for about 30 years, had read straight through it about 5 times, and had finished writing many posts on God’s Will, what prayer is and how it affects things, how God relates to us, etc.  I had deeply studied for years what the Bible said about those things.  So I already had a very good idea – from the Bible alone – of how God interacts with man, how we affect His Will, our responsibilities, etc.  My views were based solely on God’s Word.  I had never researched Calvinism nor anti-Calvinism at that point.  It wasn’t even on my radar.  (I had heard about it in high school and basically accepted it as truth back then, but then I went on my way and completely forgot about it all for years.)

But then in comes this new Calvinist preacher.  (He never told us he was a Calvinist, nor used the word Calvinism.  So “Calvinism” never came up in church nor in my mind.)  And he starts saying things that completely contradict what the Bible taught about God and His Will and how God relates to people and our responsibilities, etc.  (And he did EXACTLY the things that Graceadict wrote about!  It’s uncanny!)

And over the course of a couple years of listening to him, I got more and more disturbed.  More and more shocked at how differently he presented the Gospel than the Bible.  And so every Sunday, I would write down the things he said, the Bible verses he used, etc., and I would go home, read the Bible, look things up in the concordance, cross reference other verses, etc. until I had a very good idea of how wrong his theology was, the ways it was wrong, and what the Bible really said.  And I started writing papers about it (ideally so I could share it with those at my church, but that didn’t happen so I ended up turning it into a blog).

And I did all of this BEFORE I knew that this was Calvinism, before I ever even thought of the word Calvinism.  I learned how wrong he was NOT by reading anti-Calvinist stuff, but by hearing him preach and comparing it to what the Bible said.  And only AFTER all of this – after I saw and wrote about how different his theology was from the Bible – did I start looking online to see if other people shared my view.  And that’s when I found Soteriology 101.  And so Leighton (and the other anti-Calvinist writers out there) did not influence my Anti-Calvinist views at all.  He confirmed them!  He confirmed the views I had come to on my own by reading the Bible alone.

It’s like Reggie (another commenter) said, “I saw Calvinism as a divisional system before I ever knew there were others who believed it was a contradiction to God’s Word!”

That’s how it was for me too.  And for many others who know the Bible for themselves and who think for themselves.

As TS00 (another commenter) says: “Very, very few become Calvinists because reading the Bible led them to it.  Nearly all were seduced by charismatic, clever influencers to adopt their interpretations of scripture, in spite of the repulsion most feel to the heinous caricature of God it asserts.  They submit to the authority of men and traditions, rather than grappling with scripture and confronting logical contradictions and moral atrocities.”

In general, I think it’s the Calvinists who “believe the conclusions” of other Calvinists, because they’ve been charmed by charismatic, clever, dogmatic Calvinists, been shamed and manipulated into falling in line with them for fear of dishonoring God or being an unhumble Christian, been taught to not trust their intellect when they see problems or have concerns about the things Calvinism teaches, etc.

Graceadict hits the nail on the head: "We saw how twisted and tortured the Calvinist interpretation really was.  How it distorts so many of God’s attributes... We experienced the oppression forced on us by clever word tactics used over and over again.  They tried to make us believe Calvinism was the only way scripture could be seen and that only the humble, the elect, the studied would see this secret knowledge.  And yes, there are many contradictions (in Calvinism) but ... "That is a 'mystery,'” they told us, "and you have to be humble enough to hold those contradictions in tension even if the contradictions make God out to be less than truthful, less than holy, less than loving.  Just get over it.  Who are you, O man, to question God?”  They made us feel like when we questioned what they were saying about God that we were actually questioning God, not just their view of God.  BUT we were NOT.  We saw that God’s Holy name was being blasphemed and it troubled us greatly and still does."

In general, I think those of us who disagree with Calvinism do so because we know the Word for ourselves well enough to spot errors when we hear them.  (And Calvinism’s errors are not small, subtle, or hard to see; they are huge, blazingly blatant, and totally obvious, if one will just open their eyes to see it.)

And we disagree with Calvinism because we take the Word for what it simply, clearly says, refusing to buy into the Calvinistic "secret knowledge," hidden meanings, double-layers, and redefinitions.  Those are the kinds of things that Calvinists have to learn from other Calvinists, because it’s not clearly in the Bible.  They have to be taught that stuff, which is why I say that it’s the Calvinists who believe what others tell them, instead of coming to their views by learning for themselves what the Bible says right from the Bible itself.

In my opinion, Calvinism is a cult.  And it’s not too different from the serpent in the Garden of Eden, subtly and cleverly using word tricks and mind games to manipulate Eve to doubt what God clearly said, to put her own thinking above God’s Word, to rationalize/excuse her drift from God and His Truth, etc.  As I’ve said before: Calvinism is brilliantly satanic and satanically brilliant!

... And to clarify what I said about Calvinism’s errors being "huge, blatant, and obvious."  I’m saying that some of the ways it contradicts the Bible are clear and obvious (if you take the Word for what it simply, clearly says) – such as when Calvinism says that Jesus didn’t die for everyone, that men can’t seek God, that God gets glory by putting people in hell, that God causes sin, etc.  There are many Calvinist errors that are huge and obvious, if only we open our eyes to it.

BUT the things that are not huge, blatant, or obvious are Calvinism’s manipulative tactics, their subtle redefinitions of words, the secret double meanings, etc.  They hide much of what they really believe (like hiding a hook in worm or poison in a shiny, juicy apple), in order to make their theology sound more biblical than it is, so that they can slowly lead you deeper and deeper into Calvinism, bit by bit, until you start willingly drinking the Kool-aid, convinced that you’re being a good Christian for doing so.

While many of Calvinism’s errors are obvious, their cult-like tactics are not.  And this is what traps people!  I don’t think it’s the theology that gets people, but the cult-like manipulation by intelligent, dynamic, confident-sounding Calvinist preachers.  (When you tell people what Calvinism’s core beliefs are, without the manipulative/deceptive layers they wrap it in, they go “That’s insane!  How can anyone believe that stuff!?!”  Added note: It's interesting how those who are not Christians know to reject that stuff but those who have been Christians for a long time or who truly desire to be humble and God-honoring are easily sucked into it.  That's so twisted, and it shows how satanically brilliant it is!  Destroying the church from the inside out.)

But if more people were aware (BEFORE they listened to Calvinist preachers) of the subtle ways Calvinism changes things and manipulates/shames people and how they hide what they really mean under godly-sounding layers, I think there’d be a lot less people getting suckered into it.

When we left our church, I made sure to say the words “the pastor’s manipulative tactics” to the few people we talked to after we left, so that it would get in the back of their minds and maybe help them notice it when it happened.  It’s much easier to be manipulated if we don’t see it as manipulation, and especially if we’re taught that they (the Calvinist pastors) are simply “teaching right from the Scriptures,” that we have no choice but to agree with them because it’s “what the Bible says,” and that agreeing with them is the godly, humble thing to do.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that while many of Calvinism’s errors (compared to the truth of the Bible) are obvious, there is much about Calvinism that is not obvious. And that’s the stuff that traps people!

TS00 (another anti-Calvinist) replies to my comment:

This is so, so true!  One of the young women who grew up in the church along with my children (and is still a ‘nominal Calvinist’) frequently speaks of how the pastor’s teaching and demeanor changed over the years.  The early, positive days gradually morphed into authoritarian, dark, controlling tactics.  But most of us were like frogs in a boiling pot, and while we felt a bit of discomfort now and then, we did not understand what was truly going on.

God had to get my attention through unrelated matters, then shocked me by showing me how these things applied to my church and Christian beliefs.  He has worked on me my entire life, gradually revealing and knocking down the idols I didn’t even know I harbored.  ‘No, no!’ I cried.  ‘Not this too.  Oh, God, if you take my church, my community, my family, what will I have left?”  And he quietly led me to consider if He was enough.  All night.  Was I willing to give up all else, if, in return, I grew ever more in my understanding and relationship with Him?  Would I trust Him to provide all that I need?

What else could I say but ‘Yes’?  And I want to testify to the truth that He is faithful and good, a shelter in the time of storm.  I had a mother and a few siblings who were my anchors in the most turbulent days.  Later, as they grew older, most of my children also came to better understand my concerns, and are even now dealing with some of the same questions.  God also led me to online sources of information, encouragement and interaction, giving me the opportunity to work through my trauma, begin the process of healing and start on a path of rebuilding my somewhat battered faith and relationship with God.

Underneath all of the lies and error I had unknowingly embraced remained the God of my youth, who is good, gracious, loving, merciful and kind, desiring that none perish but all come to a full knowledge of who and what He is.  My desire is now to help others who, unknowingly, have fallen under the spell of error and distortion that turns God into a cruel, loveless, narcissistic tyrant and His followers into little images of their caricature of God.

Because, make no mistake, we will become like the God that we worship.  Personally, I have enough problems to overcome, I don’t need a faulty image of God to screw me up even more.  I aspire to the perfection of His beauty, love and selflessness, and to show these true and blessed characteristics to others.  Perish the thought of meeting the broken and needy with the ‘good news’ that God just may not love them; may even have created them for nothing but evil, sorrow and destruction.  That is a gospel straight from the pit of hell, cleverly disguised by its false angel of light as the true gospel.

Why should we be surprised, as I was?  Does not scripture warn us of such things?  Does it not warn us that in the last days the deceit will be so great that, if possible, even the elect (real definition: "all who choose to put their trust in God," not the Calvinist's definition of "a random few people preselected for salvation") will be confused and deceived?  How else could this be possible if the deception did not arise from within the walls of that which we call ‘the church’?

My comment to Eric Smith who had a problem with my previous sarcastic comment to him:

Eric Smith has a problem with my sarcasm and the way I argue against Calvinism.  (I hope that Eric didn’t intend to insult, but I still think it sounds like he’s saying that agreeing with Leighton means we’re being misled by him, that we are interpreting Scripture through his eyes instead of seeing it for ourselves.)

Eric Smith also said “the Bible shows that God decrees, foreordains, and predetermines all things” … which would absolutely and irrefutably include my sarcasm and the way I argue against Calvinism.

So … I ask … who does Eric Smith really have a problem with?

He also says: “When believers are trying to wrestle with these truths … They need someone to go through scripture prayerfully (perhaps for a long time) so they can come to the knowledge of the truth.”

So we NEED to go through scripture prayerfully in order to find truth … meaning that what we do has an effect of whether we find truth or not … meaning that we might not find truth if we don’t go through scripture prayerfully.  I agree with this.

But … from the Calvinist perspective where Calvi-god “decrees, foreordains, and predetermines all things” … what role does Calvi-god (who decrees, foreordains, and predetermines all things) play in all of this?  Is he or is he not the one who causes the elect to believe and to know the truth?  How “predetermining” can he be if our actions affect our faith, if we NEED to do certain things to find truth, as if not doing those things will cause us to not find the truth that Calvi-god predestined us to find?  How elect can the elect be if what they do or don’t do affects the outcome?

Eric talks like a Calvinist (saying God predetermines all things, meaning He inevitably brings everything about), but then he takes credit for finding truth, by searching Scripture and wrestling with Scripture for years.  I wonder, where would Eric be now if he didn’t do those things, if everything’s been predetermined anyway?

And Eric asks why I don’t address his other points by using Scripture.  Well, it's for the same reason I don’t repeatedly beat my head against our steel front door in an effort to get through it.  With most dogmatic Calvinists, it’s fruitless.  Sometimes you have to address the cult-like, manipulative hold that Calvinism has on people before they can see they are trapped in it and how they got trapped in it.  If someone doesn’t know they are in a prison, it’s nearly impossible to convince them they need to be set free.

And Eric, don’t take my sarcasm personally.  It’s not you, it’s me.  Or more accurately, it’s not me, it’s Calvi-god.  (I’m sorry, I just can’t stop it.  It flows out of me so easily.  No harm intended.  And I can take it as easily as I give it.  So it’s all good.)

And to answer one of your questions: I do consider many “Calvinists” as brethren whom I love.  Some of our favorite friends at the church we left (because of Calvinism) are Calvinists.  And they are some of the most godly, God-fearing, gentle, generous, loving people I know.  And yes, we have gently tried to share our concerns about Calvinism with them, about what Scripture really says and how Calvinism twists Scripture.  But they don’t want to listen or to consider that their beloved Calvi-pastor could be wrong.  And so, out of respect for them and their right to believe what they want, we left them alone.

But … the thing is … I suspect that most Calvinists are not really Calvinists at all.  They are “Calvinists,” in quotes. Nominal Calvinists who are not really aware of the dark side of Calvinism, the horrible, Scripture-twisting things that are a fundamental part of Calvinism.  They have simply bought into Calvinism because that is what a powerful, dogmatic, “educated,” confident-sounding Calvinist preacher told them they need to believe, in order to be a humble, God-honoring Christian.  And if they are aware of the darker side, they’ve been manipulated and shamed into accepting it without question.

I have seen the manipulation first hand.  I’ve see the traps and the tricks that sucker people into Calvinism.  When I hear a Calvinist preacher preach their destructive twists on Scripture, it causes me to go “Wow!  That’s horrible!  What an assault on truth and on the character of God!”  But sadly, I am sure the Calvinist next to me, who hears the same things I do, thinks “Wow!  How bold our Calvinist pastor is to preach such distasteful, difficult 'truths,' and how humble he is to accept it without question or push back.  I want to be that bold and humble too.”  (I put 'truths' in quotes because it's not biblical truth, just what the Calvinist preaches tells them is 'truth.')

No wonder Calvinism has such a hold on people, especially on good, God-fearing Christians who desperately want to honor God and to be as humble as they can be.  And that’s just like Satan – to use godly things and godly truths against God!  I’ve said it before, but I believe Calvinism is satanically brilliant and brilliantly satanic.  And if these nominal “Calvinists” will ever allow themselves to heed the red flags that pop up when they compare what Calvinism SAYS Scripture teaches to what Scripture ACTUALLY teaches – if they ever notice the Calvinist glasses they wear when reading Scripture and take them off – then they might realize they are not Calvinists after all.